I had opined on Maxwell's House, in response to a blog by Devin Maxwell, the failed 2008 Liberal candidate for MP in Halifax Citadel - suggesting that PM Harper should be "ashamed" for not doing more for Omar Khadr, that, well, "nope, not losing any sleep for poor Omar."
Devin suggests that says more about me.. and I suppose it does - in so far as I worry more about the families of those who have been killed by terrorists, than I do about terrorists who are alive and, relatively, well in this world. So color me a bad guy.
Well.. after that minor sharing of views, Devin devoted a full blog to make his point that I should "check my DNA" if I'm not losing sleep after viewing the "evidence" of improper conduct of our government relative to poor Omar.
See his "evidence" here, here, here, and here - decide for yourself.
Anyhow.. not being one to shy away from a debate - particularly with fellow legal counsel, I responded on the blog:
Still not losing sleep.
Let's start with the background.
It is not like Khadr was randomly picked up off of the street. He was at least present -and quite clearly participating, in a battle between U.S. armed forces and Taliban or Al Qaeda terrorists. That is a fact.
I do note from his affidavit, that he has very detailed and clear information about his time in Gitmo - but offers up nothing to explain or even deny the allegation that he is a murderer who killed a U.S. medic. That he was trained, and shown in a video making improvised explosive devices - which type of devices have been the vehicle of death for many of our Canadian soldiers.
Now - yes, his affidavit makes numerous allegations - some of which suggest he was mistreated, and some suggesting he was in fact tortured.
Personally, while I'm not going to have too much personal sympathy for a terrorist who is tortured, I believe the real problem with torture is it demeans the country who is authorizing and practicing it, as it is hardly consistent to suggest that terrorists using violence to obtain their own ends is wrong, but when it's to obtain our ends, it's ok. I will fully acknowledge that.
However - was Khadr tortured? Clearly, we know Khadr is to some degree lying. That is a certainty. For him to state that he has no information or knowledge of "anything related to Islamic extremism or Al Qaeda" is, well, completely unbelievable considering he was at least present, if not complicit, in the murder of a U.S. Medic. What - did he trip and fall into the midst of the battle? Please.
The other two affidavits - frankly, I can't even see their relevance. Firstly, there is a transcript of an interview where Harper says, basically, that he was going to follow the lead of the Liberal government and not interfere with the prosecution of Khadr, but would seek assurances he was treated humanely. Now - the reporter makes the statement, twice, that the Canadian government "knew" Khadr was being tortured.. which is probative of, well, nothing.
Finally - the cross-examination transcript - which, at the end, illustrated, nothing. CSIS attended on two occasions, interviewed Khadr, and basically found that he had given very inconsistent information regarding his involvement with terrorists - most recently, suggesting that he had no involvement or information, and that any evidence to the contrary was given under duress or torture. Problem is - the prior evidence is much more consistent with the fact that he was present and participating in a terrorist exercise.
Now - let's take a closer look at the Khadr family, shall we.
Omar was born in Canada in 1986 - however, he never grew up here. The Khadr family took advantage of Canada for medical care, and apparently for Omar's birth - and then essentially returned to Pakistan and Afghanistan because they did not "approve" of our culture. It appears clear that Omar's father was a close associate of Osama Bin Laden and his brothers were all trained in Al Qaeda - and they continued to reside in Pakistan or Afghanistan until 1992 - when his father - while plotting and planning to harm western interests - clearly felt comfortable enough to return to Canada to obtain medical care when he was injured in Lowgar, Afghanistan - where he recuperated - only to return to Pakistan, being killed in 2003 during a raid on Al Qaeda and Taliban - Omar remaining in that part of the world until he allegedly killed a U.S. Medic.
Video captured at the location of the battle allegedly discloses that Khadr was shown being trained in, or making IED's.
There it is.. the Khadr's are a family of terrorists - who were in Canada when it was convenient to utilize our health care system - and returned to Pakistan and Afghanistan to wage their war on the west.
I fully support the notion that torture is wrong - and if in fact Khadr was tortured, while I find that offensive - I'm still not losing sleep, and I would not for a moment feel that would either justify or excuse what he and his family were involved in.
The soldiers in Canada who have been murdered. The innocent people murdered in the 9-11 terrorist attacks. The many, many innocent people killed and tortured by Islamic extremists around the world by people like the Khadr's deserve perhaps a little more attention of people like you, Devo, but then, their lives are expendable or can be ignored - because they really don't help you make your point that our government is somehow "bad", because, amongst other things, they don't do enough to help terrorists who happen to be born here. (And, by the way, if you're going to attack Harper, well, you have to lump in with that the government under Paul Martin and in particular his Minister of Justice, Irwin Cotler - who, in a move that only a Liberal could be so hypocritical to try to pull off - did nothing for Omar while he was Minister, but yet complained loudly, and filed formal documents, seeking Omar's repatriation - AFTER his party was voted out of power.. what, Irwin, somehow the idea just came to you after you lost your job?)
Perhaps we could get a few thoughts on that subject, Devin, namely, why Irwin Cotler and Paul Martin did nothing when Omar was first arrested and placed in Gitmo - and only came to his defence when the Liberal party was in opposition.
The Khadr affair is complex and difficult - however, the notion that he is a "victim" belies the reality that so many terrorists are also "victims" as much as Omar - and unless we wish to put down our arms and allow their continued sick and murderous tactics to continue, some blood is going to be spilled by these so-called "victims", and, again, no sleep will be lost here over it.
9 comments:
great post...
thanks
That scumbag's lawyer was on ex-Duffy tonite saying that he knew Khadr was tortured in Gitmo.
Bull effin sh*t. Lying bastard.
How could be know? And the torture he described was imaginary.
Any torture would be reported and torturers would be jailed. Thats the way the USA does their military business.
Unlike any of their / our adversaries.
I'd like to drop his lawyer into an Afstan cave and see how he does.
Those Khadr bags of sh*t would kill every child in Canada and celebrate it. and there are some of us (so to speak) who defend their right to do it.
Thanks Lemon - I don't want to make light of torture - to my understanding it isn't particularly effective, and I think it diminishes our moral position in seeking to oppose terrorism.. but, I think you're right. There is no doubt that during Omar's stay in Gitmo he was in discussion with other known Al Qaeda, and a known strategy clearly was to cry "torture" and seek to use the heart of the west against them.. that being said, I don't particularly trust the past Bush regime to act particularly honestly either.. but, hey, that's the chance Al Qaeda take - including Omar.
I saw I Cotler on CBC yesterday, making an impassioned plea for Khadr's return. What Don Newman did not ask is why he took no action while the Liberals were the govenment. The firefight took place Feb 2002; Khadr was moved to Gitmo in Oct 2002. PM at this time was J. Chretien. After P Martin's administration, Harper became PM in Jan 2006. The Liberals had close to 4 years to request a return of Khadr. For much of that time Cotler was Justice Minister or Attorney General and the leading Liberal Human Rights spokesman. How is it now "long standing Liberal policy" to demand action on the file? (Iggy yesterday) It was during those four years that most of the prisoners were returned to their home countries.
Human rights are for "good" people, not muslims. Is that your argument? I utterly reject your suggestion that there are 2 tiers of CAnadian citizenship and that your dear leader should only go to bad for the good people.
Did I say that Muslims had no rights? Do you care about the many, many Muslims murdered and tortured by Taliban and Al Qaeda?
Don't play silly with me "Grit Patriot" by implying that my comments make a suggestion that they don't.
Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists - whatever - they are all people, and, if citizens, are deserving of the full protection of the state.. ..however, when any of those groups' members resort to terrorism, well, I think the so-called "rights" of those INDIVIDUALS become secondary to other interests of those who choose to live peacefully in our society. We make those choices all the time - we take away personal freedom and put people in jail for committing crimes - so don't give me this liberal drivel about not respecting the "rights" of terrorists.
Oh - and btw, just what are he human rights standards under the Taliban - in theory, we should adopt their standards, and the arrest of Khadr took place in their jurisdiction, and they are of the position that the west are simply intruders - so to be fair, let's just adopt their standards under their jurisdiction.
And - as we have seen with the Khadr's, perhaps some amendment to our immigration laws are in order such that if you truly seek asylum and citizenship in this great country, and choose to accept the freedom and the support which all Canadians share the responsibility to provide.. you perhaps shouldn't be permitted to reside here when its convenient.
To look back at Omar's family history makes me puke, to be blunt. They come here, take advantage of a health care system which is already over-burdened, and then go back and engage in terrorism to basically kill the hands that delivered their care.
If you choose to stand up for those, feel free - I'll not stand with you, thank-you.
Ok.. and, so I again open the floor to any Liberal supporter who cares to step up and explain how Chretien, Martin and Cotler did nothing to help Khadr.
**sound of crickets chirping**
Rob:
Did I say that Muslims had no rights? Do you care about the many, many Muslims murdered and tortured by Taliban and Al Qaeda?
So, is it your reasoning that we will make Al Qaeda and the Taliban abandon their penchant for murder and torture by murdering and torturing them? Genius.
Muslims, Christians, Jews, atheists - whatever - they are all people, and, if citizens, are deserving of the full protection of the state.. ..however, when any of those groups' members resort to terrorism, well, I think the so-called "rights" of those INDIVIDUALS become secondary to other interests of those who choose to live peacefully in our society.
So, Muslims don't have rights then. Make up your mind. Either they have rights or they don't. According to you, the rights of individual Muslims are secondary because some Muslims engage in criminal activity. Maybe we should open an illegal prison for the Irish (IRA) or Italians (Mafia) or South Americans (drug trade). Again, genius.
Ok.. and, so I again open the floor to any Liberal supporter who cares to step up and explain how Chretien, Martin and Cotler did nothing to help Khadr.
I can't fully explain why the Liberal Party did not do more for Omar Khadr prior to 2006, except to say that many of the revelations about his potential innocence have only come out in the last couple years. Certainly, details of the atrocities at Guantanamo have come to light on the Conservatives' watch.
In any event, even if the Liberals did fail to act appropriately (which they didn't in my view), it does not relieve the current government from its obligations. This is a typical conservative argument...you did (or didn't do) it, so we can do it (or not do it). The fact is that Omar Khadr and the illegal and immoral conditions of Guantanamo Bay are in Stephen Harper's face and he has chosen not to do anything...even when the American President himself has taken decisive action.
As far as the anonymous tough guy Lemon is concerned, you must be happy to have people like him/her on your side. Instead of thanking him for his outrageous and sadly ill informed comments you should explain to him the truth of what has occurred at Guantanamo Bay and the duties of his lawyers in defending him. Instead, you choose to allow his ignorance to go on uncorrected.
I correct my above post for dates:Khadr was captured in Jul 2002. This means that PMs Chretien and Martin had about 31/2 years to deal with the file, while Harper is coming up to 3 years. Irwin Cotler was Justice Minister and Atorney General from Dec 2003, he had about 21/2 years to request extradition. Since he is the chief Liberal critic favouring extradition now, it seems reasonable to ask him to explain his actions then. Perhaps he did lobby Martin to act and was turned down, if so it would help bolster his case now. Otherwise Harper is simply following prededent of two former PMs.
My feeling is that as Commander In Chief, Obama is not going to simply turn Khadr over to Canada without a trial, where it is certain that he would go free. Medic Chris Speer is very much dead and Khadr was very involved in the firefight. I think in a regular US court, the chances of conviction would be quite high.
Martin:
Medic Chris Speer is very much dead and Khadr was very involved in the firefight.
What is your source for this?
My source for both posts is the Wkiipedia entry for Omar Khadr, I realize this is not an infallible source, but I used it to refresh my memory, and to put some dates on events. I did error on the date of the firefight, but that was mt mistake, subsequently corrected.
Wikipedia lists dozens of newspaper accounts as their primary sources.
My other main source is CBC Radio The Current. They provided interviews with Sgt. Speer's comrades, eyewitness accounts of the firefights. I understand that Mr. Khadr'd legal team have a different version of events. Fair enough.
I have been careful to present as facts what we all can agree to. There was a firefight in Jul 2002 involving Sgt. Speer and Omar Khadr and others. Sgt. Speer was fatally wounded and Mr. khadr was severely wounded, but his life was saved by the US medical team which moved him to Bagram hospital. I am unaware of anyone on Khadr's defence team claiming he was not present, or wounded, or that he was not evacuated to Bagram.
Sgt. Speer's widow and Sgt. Layne Morris filed suit in the Utah District Court against the estate of Ahmed Khadr (Omar's father); they were awarded + $102 M damages in 2006. This civil suit has little bearing on a criminal case, but it does indicate some of the case may be provable.
Pres Obama has been quite clear on plans to ramp up US forces in Afghanistan. I don't think he will signal to these troops that he will give up an accused killer of a US Medic without a fair trial.
I expect a trial to take place.
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